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Topic: Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?
Posted by: Leslie Smith
Date/Time: 2010/8/7 13:08:35

We agree about a lot, but not all. Here are some of the latter:

One of the more critical aspects of reasoning
Your?paragraph identifies two major problems - causality and necessity. They are linked because a nomological necessity [A volcano's eruption destroyed Pompeii] and a logical necessity [A or B & not-A => B] are both necessities, but not the same type. The problem is twofold:?their formation at all from facts in experience, and too how they become distinctively different. But I don't?see how the selection task bear on either problem. And both problems have been fundamental for 2 millennia, roughly from to Wittgenstein [to take two sages]. See also the "have to" example below: the causal "have to" is different from both.

half stages
One way forward: use levels or layers?as the unit of analysis [these are the English equivalents of Piaget's French. For what it is worth, stages pre-occupied Piaget during 1936-66, but before and after that, levels or layers were a principal focus. Roughly, he referred to levels rather than stages by a factor of 4:1. English translators have not always reflected this, in using 'stage' to translate what in French is 'level' or 'layer'].?Stages are a special case of level. A focus on stages with their indefinite large range of applications can result in a focus on sequences/outcomes with mechanisms left out. But a focus on serial levels linked by a specific model of their inter-relations makes a closer fit with agencies-at-work - the veritable micro in development.The model has to deal with normative relations?- otherwise comprehension will fail. Example: study of brother - if A is the brother of B, then B is and has to be the brother of A, a normatively necessary relation that children evidently do not grasp - see Piaget's Judgment & Reasoning (1924/1928) and Morphisms (1990/1992) [dates = French/English publication dates. A nice example of massive continuity in Piaget]. Take another example [see chapter 5 in my 2006 book Norms in Human Development]: "I have to do X" but then again "I might not" is not a contradiction but rather is a regrettable fact of life - not only possible, but frequent. Contrast "5 + 2 has to be 7" followed?by "but it isn't" - a contradiction! Children get to understand this: ergo How - what is the formation?

not whether or not there are stages because there is overwhelming evidence that there are.?The issue is what models best account for what we find to be stages and how do organism solve the tasks that require those stages?
Yes!

We are waiting for someone to come up with additional stages.?
Why not make life easier and search for serial levels under a normative model, whether or not these turn out to be stages or stage-like [cf. laws and law-like in the philosophy of science]?

the structure that Inhelder posited was in the mind, was really in the structure of the tasks.
No. Or rather, even if Yes, then No. If Yes, you still need an account as to what is "in the subject" enabling comprehension of the structure allegedly in the tasks. If structure S1 is in the tasks, well and good; but what is the structure in the subject [child, adult] - is it S1, or S2, or Sn? If there is no structure, I take this to mean no norms; and then I am going to ask: but how could a non-normative mind ever grasp any norm operative in the world - for example causal necessities or logical necessities?
[unlike Popper, I reckon there is one world, not three].

Are norms sufficient? No
Are norms necessary? Yes; and there are problems aplenty in accounting for them. The first step is to bracket off their causal manifestations [they have these alright, but they are like the play Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark]. See Wittgenstein?"Mathematics forms a network of norms [in that] if calculation reveals a causal connexion to you, then you are not calculating.. Mathematics is normative’’.[quoted in my 2009 paper in New Ideas in Psychology, 27, 228-242.]

ps: Joe Becker's two suggestions today seem to be on the right lines; but I have read neither yet [hence 'seem' as a marker of my ignorance].


Entire Thread

Topic(Point at the topics to see relevant reminders)Date PostedPosted By
How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 22:59:56Richard Meinhard
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:04:41Michael Lamport Commons
          Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:05:30Richard Meinhard
               Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:06:54Trevor Bond
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:07:57Leslie Smith
          Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:15:00Michael Lamport Commons
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:09:52Michael Lamport Commons
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:11:02Michael Lamport Commons
          Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:13:13Michael Lamport Commons
          Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/7 13:04:58aj malerstein
          Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/7 13:06:38joe becker
               Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/7 13:09:36
     Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/7 13:08:35Leslie Smith
               Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2015/9/12 4:30:46ycfolsli
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:19:00Leslie Smith
          Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/17 23:13:07Orlando Martins Lourenço
               Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/17 23:13:48Leslie Smith
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:23:48joe becker
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:26:32Michael Lamport Commons
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:27:36aj malerstein
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:28:24aj malerstein
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:29:29Michael Lamport Commons
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:32:24joe becker
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:33:12
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:34:14joe becker
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:35:33Michael Lamport Commons
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:36:16joe becker
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:31:38Michael Lamport Commons
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:38:12aj malerstein
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:38:57Michael Lamport Commons
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:41:30Michael Lamport Commons
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:42:48Michael Lamport Commons
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:44:01aj malerstein
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:21:44aj malerstein
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:22:50Leslie Smith
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:27:57annou2
          Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:29:15Maria Judith
               Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:30:03annou2
               Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:31:02Richard Meinhard
     The two references mistakes2010/8/7 13:11:25Richard Meinhard
          Re:The two references mistakes2015/9/12 4:30:46lqdajtgq
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:25:07annou2
          Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:25:47joe becker

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