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Topic: Re:How are mental operations observed?
Posted by: Michael Lamport Commons
Date/Time: 2010/8/5 23:09:52

A Comparison Post Piagetian Models Stages and Levels

About thirty-five years ago, the first neo-Piagetian models began to appear
Although Piaget opposed these models, they have persisted
These new models have some similarities to Piaget’s theory and some differences
Comparing a Number of Neo-Piagetian Models
Which proposals have generating mechanisms?
How many stages and levels are produced?
What assumptions does each make?
To what extent does each proposal account for all known stages and levels?
How complete are they?
To what extent are they content bound?
What is the proposed mechanism of stage transition?
Inhelder and Piaget
Higher stages are defined in terms of lower ones
Higher stages organize the actions from the lower stages
Their theory did not separate tasks and performances
Coded performances without examining task characteristics
Posited schemas, operations and other inferred mental actions
Notion of stage transition is not based on a learning theory
Proposed four overall stages, with 2 to 3 substages in each (a total of 9 levels)

Inhelder and Piaget
Sensory Motor A (Circular Sensory Motor 2)
Sensory Motor B (Sensory Motor 3)
Preoperational A (Nominal 4)
Preoperational B (Preoperations 6)
Concrete Operations A (Primary 7)
Concrete Operations B (Concrete 8)
Formal Operational A (Abstract 9)
Formal Operational B (Formal 10)
Formal Operational C (Systemic 11)
Pascual Leone
Pascual Leone (1972) developed the first new theory that fit much of the data
This began the Neo Piagetian era
Pascual Leone was the first to divide each Inhelder and Piaget’s stages into two stages
His was a psychological theory of levels of human development
The generator mechanism was based on working memory and how that controls executive function
One of his students was Robbie Case

There are others who have followed in this tradition including but not limited to Frye and Zelazo?
A generator theory has been proposed by Halford
It does not map at all onto other Neo-Piagetian theories, including Pascual Leone’s, Fischer’s or Commons?


Kurt Fischer’s Theory
It is also a generator theory
It uses mapping to generate the levels
It is the second most complete
It is only missing the Sentential stage, which Fischer suggested for the Model of Hierarchical Complexity
It does not include postformal stages beyond the Metasystematic Stage
It does not separate task characteristics from performance but that is acceptable to Fischer
It includes support, making clear how to test better for levels
The Model of Hierarchical Complexity
It separates task characteristics (Orders of Hierarchical Complexity) from performance (Rasch Scaled Stage Scores)
As in Piaget, higher order task actions defined in terms of lower order ones
Also, their organization is non arbitrary
Content, context less, and animal free
It mathematically proves there is only one sequence of at least 15 orders

It has a similar number of stages to Fischer’s but adds
The Calculatory Stage 0 (Computers)
Sentential Stage 5 (Sequences of Representations)
It also adds two postformal stages
Paradigmatic Stage 13
Cross-paradigmatic Stage 14

MHC Stage and Stage Numbers
Computational 0
Sensory or Motor 1
Circular Sensory Motor 2
Sensory-Motor 3
Nominal 4
Sentential 5
Preoperational 6
Primary 7
Concrete 8
Abstract 9
Formal 10
Systematic 11
Metasystematic 12
Paradigmatic 13
Cross-Paradigmatic 14


Many other theories have many fewer stages
Halford has only 4 major groupings
Some have at least the postformal stages
But they have too many assumptions making them content bound
Kohlberg, Kegan, etc. are examples
Others are perceptual?
These include Feldman and Leeuwenberg
Other models have used other metrics of complexity
Simon’s theory is about horizontal complexity and not even implicitly stage-like
But it does have chunking

Many of the traditional stage theories have specialized in specific domains because they found differences in performances across domains
Why would there be these differences?

As Andrew Richards will show, when looking at just the physical and mathematical sciences, there appears to be only one domain
Why would that be so?
The reason is that the content in tasks from these domains come relatively well coded
There is only a general specialized knowledge of the words used and in a few cases such as algebra and infinity, some education

Content and Context Variability and Coding Difficulties
We posit that almost all the content and context variability across domains is due to encoding difficulties
In the Heinz dilemma, one has to figure out what the variables are.
They do not jump out
What is the system of rights to live made up of
What are the relations and their underlying variables
What is the system of duties made up of
What are the relations and their underlying variables?

Studying the Effects of Coding
We need to find out what are the coding requirements for tasks (Problems, vignettes and dilemmas)
Vignettes and dilemmas are written in narrative form
There is no precoding of entities
In mathematics problems, variables are precoded
The effects of precoding versus no coding could be compared
Vignettes could be given two ways
One in which there are suggested codes to tasks
The other without the precoding
Are there more stages?
Because this question always gets asked
Are there stages beyond cross-paradigmatic.
Yes.?We are not high stage enough to know them
Are the stages universal
There is only one order of hierarchical complexity which is universal
Hence there can only be one correct stage theory
Whether people obtain these stages is up to education and culture.


Entire Thread

Topic(Point at the topics to see relevant reminders)Date PostedPosted By
How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 22:59:56Richard Meinhard
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:04:41Michael Lamport Commons
          Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:05:30Richard Meinhard
               Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:06:54Trevor Bond
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:07:57Leslie Smith
          Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:15:00Michael Lamport Commons
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:09:52Michael Lamport Commons
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:11:02Michael Lamport Commons
          Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:13:13Michael Lamport Commons
          Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/7 13:04:58aj malerstein
          Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/7 13:06:38joe becker
               Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/7 13:09:36
          Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/7 13:08:35Leslie Smith
               Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2015/9/12 4:30:46ycfolsli
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:19:00Leslie Smith
          Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/17 23:13:07Orlando Martins Lourenço
               Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/17 23:13:48Leslie Smith
                    Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:23:48joe becker
                         Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:26:32Michael Lamport Commons
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:27:36aj malerstein
                              Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:28:24aj malerstein
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:29:29Michael Lamport Commons
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:32:24joe becker
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:33:12
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:34:14joe becker
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:35:33Michael Lamport Commons
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:36:16joe becker
                                   Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:31:38Michael Lamport Commons
                                        Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:38:12aj malerstein
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:38:57Michael Lamport Commons
                                             Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:41:30Michael Lamport Commons
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:42:48Michael Lamport Commons
                                                  Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:44:01aj malerstein
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:21:44aj malerstein
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:22:50Leslie Smith
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:27:57annou2
          Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:29:15Maria Judith
               Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:30:03annou2
               Re:Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/8/5 23:31:02Richard Meinhard
     The two references mistakes2010/8/7 13:11:25Richard Meinhard
          Re:The two references mistakes2015/9/12 4:30:46lqdajtgq
     Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:25:07annou2
          Re:Re:How are mental operations observed?2010/9/19 23:25:47joe becker

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